Kings of Joy Podcast: Kaz Therese on They Will Be Kings & Queer Visibility

Photo credit: Tanja Bruckner

They Will Be Kings

25-28 Feb '25

Selling out now. First two shows sold out. Grab your ticket here

Danica: Hello, welcome to the Kings of Joy podcast show. My name is Danica Lani and I am the King coach. And I am joined today by Kaz Therese, if you'd like to introduce yourself to us.

Kaz; Hi, I'm Kaz Therese and I am an artist and director of They Will Be Kings. I'm also the Drag King Brad Armpitt, as you can tell by my hair. I'm the Artistic Director of Werewolf, which is really important as well.

Danica: Yes. Tell us about Werewolf.

Kaz: So, Werewolf is my new arts company. The byline is radical transformation in extreme times. So, looking at how art and culture can create transformation responding directly to this time in our civilisation, which is very precarious. They Will Be Kings is our very first production. So it's super exciting.

Danica: Yes. You and I have known each other for a little while now, so do you want to let us know how that all evolved?

Kaz: Well actually, I was going back - because I met Chris at Carriageworks because I was doing Sleeplessness and I saw Chris and then I was like, who are you? You're somehow familiar and interesting. And then I went to Queers of Joy.

Danica: Yeah, I remember you performed at Queers of Joy.

Kaz: Yeah. And then we started to get to know each other. And then I went to Kings of Joy and started to get to know you. And so, you know, I was a fan, I suppose, and was very interested in what this is all about. And I just was watching and wondering. But I just kept coming back. And then I finally got the guts to do the Drag King's course

Danica: Kings of Joy. What was that like for you? Especially someone who's a theater person? What was it like going through the Kings of Joy experience?

Kaz: Well, it's really dif∫ferent because I’m usually a leader in a group. So that was a real treat not to be, but I had to sit on my hands a lot. And just observe someone else in a different process. Because also the Kings of Joy isn't about- it's not necessarily focused on the outcome of the performance.

Whereas art, the art is. I make professional art. My brief is always high-caliber art. So that's a product. Whereas your process in the Kings of Joy is so much more about people’s - I mean, I want people to have a good experience whilst making this good thing, but it's so different in that it's more about, what you get out of it in a more holistic… yeah, it's just a different focus.

You don't come in and drill everyone, which, you know, I’ll get to that point with you guys. But it is just about sitting back and just receiving the information, having the experience and then somehow getting to the point where you're in a dance group. And it's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing.

Also, with Brad, Brad becomes part of me, rather than it being about an outcome, you know. Even though we did perform, which was amazing, Brad just opened up a lot of stuff. So it's more of a listening exercise, I think, for yourself. Something like that. Theater can be too, but it is different.

Danica: It’s definitely a journey, isn't it, that you go on in Kings of Joy. And the good thing is doing it in a group with other like-minded humans. And I remember your group was all about I'm Too Sexy. We did that song and had a bit of catwalk moment for each King that came down.

Kaz: Yeah. Which is all crazy. Like I've never done anything like that. I mean, everyone's like, ‘but you perform’, but it is really different. It's so much about flamboyance and being sexy and comfortable with your body and just being in drag and not taking yourself seriously and just finding that fun and joy. And that is… because art can be not that at all, you know? So that's very cool. That's what it is.

Danica:. And so Brad Armpitt went on and did a solo. So what was that development like of developing Brad Armpitt?

Kaz: Yeah, so I booked in with you. I think we did four sessions or something. I started writing a monologue, because that's how I usually just start telling stories, and then booked in sessions with you. And I sent that monologue to you and you put in different songs. There's a lot to do, like learning the songs, lip syncing, learning the dance, getting the character and then kind of just giving it all. Just going for it as well. And I just kind of thought, well, I'll do my best and that's enough. A best with the time that I've got. So it was a lot actually. A lot to put together, even though it's like seven minutes or something.

So yeah, I just met with you to find the more of the Bradness, you know. /Understanding what Brad is. That it's me. It's not me acting a character. It's me and this is going to be a journey, you know?

Danica: That's great. And I think the audience love Brad. And especially the, well, not especially, but including those moments where you do a flashback to a cinematic moment that Brad has done in his career. So whether it was the Thelma and Louise scene, or whether it was a Fight Club scene. That was hilarious. Like your impersonations of the, what was it? A gorilla? No, the bear!

Kaz: The bear. Yeah. I know that was the easiest bit for me to do. Cause I just thought that would just be funny at the end, but it's kind of become a bit of a fun thing.

Danica: Tell us about what inspired you to then go, Let's take something here from Kings of Joy and do a collaboration together. I was really honored and touched when you came and asked if we could do a collaboration together.

Kaz: That’s so nice. Well, I'd started Werewolf, and I was really looking for or wondering what show to do. I was just open to being inspired. And I think I was more intrigued and I realised I kept coming back to Kings of Joy and then Queers of Joy because I was really intrigued. Then I think when I did the course, I got to learn a lot more about why and how you're doing what you're doing and then being a part of the community. And so I was really interested in how you built it. Like how you build a community specifically under the gender theme.

Also, I was just overwhelmed with how much I got out of it and becoming a Drag King. And also, when I met Chris, that really helped me come out as nonbinary. So you guys are pretty - all that's pretty significant for me as Kaz as a human. And then you having a kind of performance element to this thing was something that I could dive into pretty easily.

But also, my work is very much about -in some ways, it’s documentary theater - but finding really kind ways to talk about difficult subjects and making really joyful, fantastic artworks, but that are about some critical issues of our times.

I think that what we're talking about is very much a critical issue of our time. And I don't try and go, this is the one issue. It just is where I was at.

I felt like I was really interested in collaborating with you and the community and that it would be a really complimentary collaboration in what I know. I would be able to learn something as well as it would be an exchange. It definitely fits into my aesthetic and what I want to do and say with my art. And you're all awesome. I just think you're the nicest, greatest group of people, you know.

Danica: Oh, thank you. Well, the cast is myself, and, my spouse, Chris, aka Chase Cox,, Becks aka Jim Junkie and Angel aka Fine China. And so that’s who's in the cast - all Kings of Joy. And then having you as the artistic producer and director of the work.

∫Kaz: So I bring my team, which is Gail Priest, who's probably one of the most well known experimental, musicians doing the sound,; Martin del Amo, who’s a very well known choreographer and dancer; and May Tran, who's a great performer, a young artist; Frankie Clark, who's probably the most exciting upcoming lighting designer.

So, it's a pretty amazing combined team. And Kate Gaul now, who's our Associate Director. Yeah, it's pretty kick ass. Like, it's massive.

Danica: It is massive. Because we actually got funding as well. Isn't that the first time that federal funding has been given to a Drag King project? I mean, we don't know for sure, but -

Kaz: Yeah, probably in the last, like - maybe The King Pins would have got money like 25 years ago. But it was 25 years ago. So we talk about all of this in the show, but, yeah, I just think again, the visibility thing is like… I don't know if the Australia Council has funded a project that is specifically about Drag Kinging. And from a community visibility point of view, rather than just like we're Drag, we're going to entertain you. This is much more getting underneath that.

Danica: Yeah, we really wanted to explore masculinity. From the perspective of trans and nonbinary and lesbian and AFAB bodies..

Kaz: Yeah. And it is a conversation that I need to have more and that I would love the world to have more. Ultimately, it would make me feel more comfortable in the world and more understood, maybe.

I think what you guys have got to offer and what Drag Kinging and trans masc, lesbian, nonbinary, AFAB, people have - maybe it's the time to lean into this kind of matriarchal leadership that this gender brings.

So it's really interesting because it's matriarchal leadership, but looking at masculinity. So in the world and civilisation, in contemporary culture, it’s patriarchal. And maybe Drag Queens are- it's a patriarchal structure leaning into femininity. And we're looking at matriarchal, like the very foundation of the structure of how we work, how we talk, but leaning into masc. So it's super interesting, you know. The whole discourse is wild.

Danica: Yeah. What's your vision for this show? Where do you think They Will Be Kings will go?

Kaz: I don't like to, you know- I'm just really focused on making it. And then, I'd like to get some more funding and develop it. It'd be great to do a few more seasons and maybe tour it.  First hurdles first, and then we’ll- yeah. But definitely, I'd love for more people to do your Drag King course and for it to promote that. And for it to open up a ton more conversations and opportunities to have these conversations. That would be amazing. And you do that through touring it and getting it up and out, which would be very cool.

Danica: So if we just talk right now about what's happening now, so far we’ve got a show run during Mardi Gras, the Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras season. So we're in the program for that. And we're running at Qtopia, at the Loading Dock, their theater there. We're doing a run from Tuesday the 25th of February through to Friday the 28th.

Kaz: And I think Qtopia is a really great, interesting space. So the reason that I thought it would be really good to go there is because that's a political space, a political museum and the first of its kind in Sydney in relationship to advocacy of, queer experience and understanding and transforming what it could possibly be. So, it's a great place to start.

Danica: Yeah. No, I love that vision of being Australia's first queer museum and documenting our histories. Yeah, yeah, because that's been an interesting thing that's come up is like the history. Our histories as Drag King culture and a lot of that disappearing.

Kaz: In that interview we did, you were saying like, one of the questions was, Oh, so, you know, there was some Drag Kings around 90s and 2000s and then there was like a dip and now there's kind of a few more. You would never say that about Drag Queens or other kind of art forms that they just kind of disappeared and then now they are here. That is a serious issue in the queer community that that is the narrative. And it's not just about other Drag Kings and lesbians going, 'Oh, we better do something,’ It's the whole queer community that needs to acknowledge that this is a serious issue. That there's a big part of the queer community that isn't being held and isn't being visible. And that is not what being queer or Mardi Gras or all those kinds of things is about.

You can't just rely on one person. all the time and wait for another generation to come around. There needs to be this intergenerational process happening. And I suppose with Drag Race, that's happened through RuPaul. It's such a strong, solid, powerful, kind of franchise that maybe it's pushed all these politicians to feel lots of things about it because it is so visible on that side. But we Drag Kings haven't even had our time. We want the time before we get, you know… I don't know, man, I could go on forever.

Danica: Yeah, no, it's, these are great topics, you know, these are great topics about masculinity, about visibility, about gender, about self-expression, the benefits of being mainstream, the benefits of being underground. The pros and cons of both of those states. So yeah, it's really interesting. Finally, Kaz, what would you like the ripple effect of They Will Be Kings to be in terms of a cultural conversation?

Kaz: Well, I love what you said about masculinity isn't just for men or cis men, it's for everyone. And that everyone has masc and femme and all these other kinds of colors in their gender.

To think that there's only two genders is kind of absurd and it’s kind of mistaken to be brought up like that, you know? And so people to have all the kind of realisations and layers of release that I got coming out as nonbinary. I'd like the conversation to encourage people to be aware of how powerful gender is. And that we can take control of it ourselves.

It feels like gender's somewhere like Catholicism, you know, like religion or something. People just have this really hard line about it. Like it's this fixed thing or like there’s gender terrorists out there or gender fascists. And it doesn't need to be like that.

Danica: Yeah, I like to say gender is not something to be afraid of. And, you know, no one else gets to say over your gender, only you do.

Kaz: Right. Exactly.

Danica: It’d be weird. Like sexuality -  as if someone would have a say over my sexuality. No, no, no. Only I do. Same with gender.

Kaz: But there's a lot of noise that comes into people. And I mean, it's interesting cause this whole realisation came to me when I was doing my other show. And I realised with all the photos that I was looking at when I was young, that I was always in a dress. Even though I never wore a dress. But my Mum always insisted I wear a dress at weddings and occasions. So everything that's documented about me, I'm wearing a dress. Even though that's actually not how I presented at all.

And so I started to deconstruct what that was and how stressful that was for me. And all those feelings about being anxious and stressed and feeling uncomfortable. You just swallow them and you swallow them.  And after a period of time of thinking about that, I was like - I really felt a lot of feelings about that. And I wasn't allowed to feel them, you know?

And so I've just spent the last few years just contemplating and untying those things for myself and going, I remember that little girl, well, little person, right? That little person who didn't want to be seen as a little girl or maybe not even a little boy, you know, but just a Kaz.

So, trying to reclaim that that person, and now I just feel good about getting dressed so I can borrow from both things. So, even the way I get dressed every morning is so much less stressful than it used to be. I enjoy it and I feel better. It's not about my body or my weight. It's just that I feel better than I have because I'm presenting the way I feel comfortable in presenting. I'm in control of it. I'm not worried about whether I wear a dress and how many people are going to comment on that. Or if I’m presenting too much something and someone's going to comment on it. Now no one comments. You know, I just look good. I just look good.

And I've heard Chris talk about that too in the show. Chris talks about how being trans made them feel sexy for the first time. I mean, I felt sexy, but there's a kind of new freedom in it. Yeah.

Danica: Liberation.

Kaz: Liberation.

Danica: Yes. I think a lot of people listening would really resonate with your story, and thank you for sharing that.

Kaz: Thanks, Danica.

Danica: Really appreciate it. So, we would love you to come see the show, They Will Be Kings at Qtopia. It starts on Tuesday the 25th of February and goes through to Friday the 28th.

Kaz: It’s already selling, so there's not going to be a huge amount of tickets available, so get in there.

Danica: Don't leave it to the last minute, friends. I know we like to do that for Mardi Gras, but you gotta get in there. Get a ticket. Thank you so much, Kaz. Speak soon.

Kaz: See ya.

Xx

Danica Lani

The King Coach

P.S. If you’d like to see They Will Be Kings, grab your ticket now - 2 shows already sold out. https://events.humanitix.com/they-will-be-kings 

P.P.S. Wanna be a Drag King? Join the Kings of Joy community https://www.kingsofjoy.com

Hello handsome, 🌈 I'm Danica Lani, also known as The King Coach. I'm here to empower you in your exploration of gender, sexuality, and performance. I have proudly mentored and choreographed 129 first-time Drag Kings since December 2020. Welcome to the joyous community of Kings of Joy, where we uplift and celebrate each other every step of the way! 🎉🤩 Let's embark on this Drag King journey together! 🤗💖 #KingsOfJoy